This is an unedited reprint of a conversation between an unnamed provax guy and I, for your entertainment. I thought it might be interesting to see what tactics are used to try to persuade someone to your opinion, and the methods people use to do so. Not sure I changed his mind on anything, but I know he didn’t change my mind, or bring anything new to the discussion.

Inside the Mind of an Anti-Vaxxer

I know rejecting vaccines is a nuanced area of discussion. It really comes down to some fundamental questions:

• How do we nurture health in our body?
• Whose responsibility is that?
• How do we view microbes?
• Are they beneficial, or are they indiscriminately harmful?
• Are they the cause of disease or are they a symptom that the body is imbalanced, or that our biodiversity has been compromised?
• Could disease be a sign that our body has been polluted? Toxic overload? (isn’t that the model of cancer? environmental carcinogens cause mutagenesis)
• Could a mechanism to artificially enhance immunity have unintended health effects, both short term and long term, and should those be calculated into the risk/benefit analysis?
• Should a person have the right to reject a medicine, or medical intervention, they think could harm them?
• If a society deliberately ignores the pleas of those harmed by medical interventions, or environmental toxins, do not those people have no choice but to forge a new path that both rejects the medical dogma that excludes their concerns, and also criticizes and exposes the beliefs of those members of society who vehemently embrace the one-size-fits-all dogma?
• Isn’t ‘precision medicine’ the medicine of the future?

Dan B.: You’re sharing a lot of unsubstantiated information (that is contradictory to the advice of leading health officials and scientific research) to a lot of impressionable people. Your misinformation will directly lead to many more deaths and misery in this pandemic. I’d advise you to reconsider your position, look at the actual science, listen to the health experts and remove all misleading, anecdotal and hearsay information you are currently sharing.

Circle of Mamas: I am sharing people’s experiences with vaccines. I’m genuinely sorry that shatters your bubble, but these peoples lives matter too.

DB: You are sharing unverified and anecdotal stories that people post on social media. No sources, no data, no empirical evidence. Hence why the majority of your posts are flagged by Instagram and direct viewers to the NHS site for genuine, medically accurate information on vaccines and how they save lives and will bring an end to this pandemic.

C: Or could it be because it sheds an unfavorable light on a billion dollar pharmaceutical industry? People delete bad reviews for one reason only: it threatens their business. But these are people’s LIVES.

Are you not aware that vaccines have side effects? And that these new vaccines are unknown to humans?

People’s feedback is vital. People must report their vaccine reactions to vaers, this is about vaccine safety. If people are silenced or censored or intimidated to not report or speak out about reactions: what kind of health care system is this?

DB: There’s nothing wrong with being sceptical about the pharmaceutical industry but you’re doing it in a reckless, potentially very damaging way.

Do you verify any of the claims you share? Do you take them all at their word?

There are no doubt side effects (as with any and all other medications and vaccinations) but they are minimal. This is why they go through trial periods and months of rigorous testing. You will never get a 0% chance of side effects with any medication, but the health benefits to the 99.9% of others is what we’re trying to achieve.

No one is threatening or intimidating people. If they have an issue they can report it to the appropriate health authorities where it can be properly investigated. Do you think that all doctors and healthcare officials would ignore hundreds of people becoming gravely ill because of the vaccine? The press would be all over it too. Instead, this misinformation is perpetuated on social media thanks to accounts like yours.

C: Aren’t you trying to shut down just that?

You’re calling all these reports “misinformation” without evidence.

And no, the media won’t be all over that. Vaccine injuries fall on deaf ears. This is why pages like mine exists.

DB: I’m not trying to shut anyone down. I’m just asking you to actually verify the second-hand information you share that directly influences people during a unprecedented public health crisis.

It’s misinformation until you verify it. The burden of proof is with you as you’re sharing the information. You’re being irresponsible as an account manager with access to nearly 50 thousand people.

You clearly don’t understand the media very well. Sensationalism sells, as you have seen with the popularity of your posts. If this was a serious issue with hundreds of significant side effects, the mainstream media would be climbing over each other to cover it.

C: Are you new to vaccine injury awareness? Big Pharma owns the media.

Again, this is why pages like mine exist.

I believe patients.

DB: Are you aware of the efficacy of vaccines and how they have eradicated multiple diseases that have killed millions over the years?

C: Omg.

DB: Do you believe the patients who are now immune to covid?

C: Circleofmamas.com please read some stuff before you keep writing me.

https://circleofmamas.com/health-news/edward-jenner-and-smallpox-vaccine-experimentation/

DB: I’ve seen enough of your page to know you’re a dangerous conspiracy theorist who has no regard for science or empirical evidence.

C: Look up Peter Aaby, non specific effects of vaccines. Look at the work of Chris Exley. You don’t seem like you know anything about vaccines.

DB: What point are you trying to make with the Edward Jenner article? Medical testing was primitive 250 years ago? We’ve come a long way in medical science since then and have learned a lot, which is why vaccinations are so effective today.

C: What are you using to base your opinion that “vaccinations are so effective today”?

DB: The fact that infection rates in a population plummet when there has been a widespread vaccination program. It’s pretty simple.

C: I have a whole section devoted to studies: https://circleofmamas.com/vaccine-studies/

Ok so what is your proof?

Also look at non specific effects https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29525279/

For example, flu vaccinated children had same rate of flu as unvaccinated children but more respiratory infections. So in this example, vaccinated children had more infections.

We can go point by point. I’ve been doing this for 7 years.

Seriously explore my website. And I take offense to name calling and I will block you if you insult me.

DB: It’s 2021, you can concoct as many graphs and articles as you want to attempt to prove your point. It astounds me that you can look at the history, data and studies of vaccinations and come to the conclusion that they don’t benefit society and lead to less deaths from curable diseases. How do you explain the eradication of smallpox?

Do you not identify as a conspiracy theorist? If you believe vaccinations are intentionally applied to populations despite authorities knowing their dangerous effects AND you believe “Big Pharma owns the media”, then you believe in a theory of conspiracy.

C: Pharmaceutical companies are one of the biggest advertisers on media in the US, they outspend big oil in lobbying in Washington. You are new to this, you don’t know. But it’s exhausting to have to explain everything to some brand new guy who thinks he knows what’s going on. Sorry, you don’t know what has been happening to people who are harmed by vaccines for decades, even centuries.

Look up Leicester Method: they opposed mandatory smallpox vaccination and had fewer outbreaks than nearby regions who had mandatory vaccination.

Smallpox vaccines spread smallpox. So once we stopped vaccinating, it could finally be declared eliminated.

No I don’t identify as a conspiracy theorist. I identify as a human being. This is a human rights issue.

DB: You’re making a lot of presumptions about me which proves to me even more that you lack the appropriate judgment to dispense information about an issue as big a public health. I’m well aware of the millions of lives that have been saved as a direct result of vaccinations. I’m aware of the complete eradication of diseases such as smallpox and rinderpest and the near complete eradication of diseases such as polio, tetanus, diphtheria and others. I’ll repeat – I’m not saying they do not cause side effects, like all medication can. But the negative side effects are minimal, they are accounted for and they do not negate the health benefits that the vast majority of vaccinated people receive.

Your smallpox argument is factual untrue. It is an extremely contagious virus that ripped through populations killing millions for centuries . It wasn’t until a vaccination was invented that it was finally eradicated. How can you not see that?

I agree it is a human rights issue and people should have the choice whether to be vaccinated or not. All I’m calling for is for their decision should be informed by creditable studies and empirical evidence. If it doesn’t offend you, I respect the consensus of the scientific community more than you, your anecdotal social media posts and your unsubstantiated claims.

C: So we believe that vaccines have replaced some of the common short term childhood infections with chronic conditions and allergic conditions. Things like autism, autoimmune disorders, food allergies, epilepsy and seizure disorders. You are downplaying the risks and long term complications of vaccinating infants at birth and all throughout childhood. I can demonstrate how vaccines are causing all of these disorders, and I believe it’s a parents choice 100% whether or not to vaccinate their children since they are fully responsible for their child’s health.

I think you are assuming more about me, rather than me assuming you. You are making very general statements mass consumption style statements about vaccines that are not scientifically accurate. You can’t look at vaccines in a bubble, you have to look at the increases in childhood morbidity that accompany these vaccines to be able to determine if vaccinating against 17 diseases in infancy is good for a population.

Again, explore my website and all my research. Or investigate some of the things I’m saying.

Best of luck to you [me trying to leave!]

Did the UK ever vaccinate against chicken pox? [couldn’t resist lol] That’s where you live right?

DB: There’s no widespread vaccination for chicken pox in the UK, only for groups that are at particularly high risk of complications from the disease. Most people get chicken pox as kids in this country.

C: Ok yea, interesting. No vaccination for chicken pox. The UK has had fewer vaccines than the US. Infectious diseases don’t need vaccines. They need healthy people. We give every newborn a hep b vaccine here. I think the UK only recently adopted that? We have done it for 20 or more years. And it contains aluminum.

DB: No two vaccines are the same. They have different effects on the immune system, they have different potential side effects and they have different success rates. The fact that you comprehensively condemn all vaccines – despite all the reading and research you claim to have done on the subject – is worrying.

How do you explain the eradication (or near eradication) of diseases such as smallpox, polio and tetanus after a vaccine was created and widely administered?

In the UK, not too long ago we stopped widespread vaccinations for measles, mumps and tuberculosis as infections had fallen so low they were practically eradicated. After the vaccinations stopped, cases began to climb again as immunisation began to fall. It’s a very black and white situation – correlation is causation when it comes to vaccines.

C: Which vaccine is safe in your opinion?

The US has never vaccinated against tuberculosis, and in 1900 it was in the top 3 leading causes of death. How do you account TB no longer being a leading cause of death despite no vaccination?

The UK also does not vaccinate against TB correct?

DB: You have to remember too that healthcare is universal in the UK and free of charge. There are no Big Pharma lobbyists conspiring behind the scenes. There is only one customer – the NHS, and we pay significantly less for medication and vaccines than the US.

Yes we vaccinate for TB until about 10/15 years ago. It’s called the BCG and now only high risk groups receive it, either as babies or normally at age 16.

By that I mean widespread BCG vaccinations stopped about 15 years ago, high risk vaccination continues to this day.

And to answer question (as you seem to be avoiding all of mine), I account for TB no longer being a leading cause of death to the introduction of the BCG vaccine in the 1950s.

Plus general improvements in public health via the creation of our National Health Service in 1948, making healthcare free for all.

C: What questions am I avoiding?

The BCG vaccine was never used in the US. So answer the question.

{{ Crickets }}

Learn about how polio, tetanus, and smallpox ‘went away’ after 1900.